Curse

Schorny · Nov 26, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

One word.........

Orders

doesn't make sense to me. How does work here decent?
If I'm only going to attack in melee I would bring a sword/axe because they attack faster.

You cannot send your monks to attack the enemy, it will stop them from healing

it takes time to run to the target, it takes time to swing your attack - no, I'd rather bring swords on my monk if I want to deal damage...

I play warrior quite often and the auto target feature is very helpful. Of course I need to be aware where I'm standing and who is going to block me - but nevertheless the auto target feature saves me a lot of time, especially when the enemy is running.

your order argument is flawed, because you can do it nowadays with more power (swords swing faster) and you don't do it - because you don't want your monks in the frontline and be distracted from healing.

NatalieD · Nov 26, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

If the orders thing is really such a huge problem, then just make the melee weapons do the same damage type as the wands of the same attribute. Just put the same little swirly colors around the daggers or epees or whatever and say they're magical. Easy.

Chev of Hardass · Nov 26, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

your order argument is flawed, because you can do it nowadays with more power (swords swing faster) and you don't do it - because you don't want your monks in the frontline and be distracted from healing.

You may be right, but you only get one or the other the way it is. You get full damage if you stay with Staff/Wand on a caster team, this is important for non-spike builds. You get the orders effect if you play with a sword, but get little or no damage. What you are proposing would give casters full damage plus orders at a slightly slower rate than a warrior.

So, no it seems seems my argument is not flawed.

Let's go ahead and add in the upgrades to the Caster Melee Weapons. Do they get faster recharge? Should they? No. They are giving up something for something else, Balance. Welcome to the real world.

Weezer_Blue · Nov 28, 2005, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Well if you're going to use them in that sense, lets take a look at the other side. Cannot Order be countered the same way as it would if a pathetic IWAY team were using it (as they all are). Aegis, Ward Against Melee, etc. The counters already exist... I don't see the problem. It just depends how extensively you want to make them Melee weapons, but they are balanced in every situation.

Chev of Hardass · Nov 28, 2005, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Well if you're going to use them in that sense, lets take a look at the other side. Cannot Order be countered the same way as it would if a pathetic IWAY team were using it (as they all are). Aegis, Ward Against Melee, etc. The counters already exist... I don't see the problem. It just depends how extensively you want to make them Melee weapons, but they are balanced in every situation.

Ohh crap we are suddenly talking about counters. Well, ok we can change directions to accomidate your level of comprehension.

The fact of the matter is:

Suddenly, the weapons you propose need counters.

So, I have a question for you. If a character that has your Melee caster weapon has 16 in the attribute that the weapon. Does that character get a damage boost for being over 12 in the attribute?

Do attack speed buffs work the same as they do with current Melee weapons?

Weezer_Blue · Nov 28, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

everything needs a counter. in this case, they already exist.

and to answer your questions, I would have to look out how wands and staves currently work. It would match them.

Chev of Hardass · Nov 28, 2005, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

everything needs a counter. in this case, they already exist.

and to answer your questions, I would have to look out how wands and staves currently work. It would match them.

I think instead of spending your time trying to think up ways to make the game easier for button pushers, you should master your profession.

You see in the world there are two kinds of people.

Button Pushers- These people may have some idea of what the knob or button they push does, but they put no thought into the process. These people, when fixing stereos, plug things into different things until they get lucky. When they play guild wars, they hit every skill on the barr and hope it works.

Non-Button Pushers- These people investigate the purpose of the button or knob that they press, and only use them when they feel the time is right. These people, when fixing stereos, read the labels (instruction manuls even), and fix the problem because they understand how it operates. When they play Guild Wars, they use skills based on the appropriate time.

I will now ask you which one of these descriptions follows the player skill mentality?

Schorny · Nov 28, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

I think instead of spending your time trying to think up ways to make the game easier for button pushers, you should master your profession.

It has nothing to do with button mashing. Please start to read. Thx.

How can less damage than a sword on a caster when using orders be a threat to balance? You already can use this technique and noone is running it because it sucks.

And if you are so scared about orders let the weapon do elemental damage - who cares? You don't want it for damage, you want it for PBAoE or touch skills.

Play a touch ranger and tell me it is already too easy. For example: it is nearly impossible to interrupt using shock, when you don't have a sword equiped.

Look at warriors, they don't have it easy to stay at melee range - and now think about how difficult it is for a touch ranger to stay at melee ranger. It is very very tough. And it don't need to be...

Quote:

You see in the world there are two kinds of people.

The ignorant and the intelligent?
No, sorry

You have exactly one argument: it will be too easy to play with melee caster weapons - which simple is wrong. Why should a touch ranger have it more difficult than a warrior? Is it balance if you have a hard time just because you are no warrior?

It has _nothing_ to do with pushing a button. It won't help. Look at warriors. Simple pushing buttons don't make you a good warrior, right?

LightningHell · Nov 28, 2005, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Wholly agreed to the above post.

However, I would make another note to Chev of Hardass...

I highly doubt that attack skills would be for these melee weapons, so stop grinding about how they use this weapon, and just press every skill in their skillbar.

Mashing the button at the target, even if you're a warrior, doesn't help. Clearing up your mind does, though.

Chev of Hardass · Nov 28, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

How can less damage than a sword on a caster when using orders be a threat to balance? You already can use this technique and noone is running it because it sucks.

I guess it didn't suck when they made Staves upgradeable to physical damage. It didn't suck so much they removed those Staff upgrades from the game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

Play a touch ranger and tell me it is already too easy. For example: it is nearly impossible to interrupt using shock, when you don't have a sword equiped.

Or a blackout mesmer? It would seem that some skills that are not Warrior skills were really geared to be used with a Warrior primary or secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

Look at warriors, they don't have it easy to stay at melee range - and now think about how difficult it is for a touch ranger to stay at melee ranger. It is very very tough. And it don't need to be...

And those that can do it without crutches will loose thier jobs to less skilled players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

You have exactly one argument: it will be too easy to play with melee caster weapons - which simple is wrong. Why should a touch ranger have it more difficult than a warrior? Is it balance if you have a hard time just because you are no warrior?

The answer here is, go get a warrior secondary and a weapon. Part of balance is having to give up one thing to gain another.

Hey, why not ask for upgrade stacking? I get tired of switching weapons when I play warrior. So, make my vampiric also sundering, and furious, and cruel, and lightning damage as well.

Fact is, I see people use these skills regularly without the crutches. These people deserve to shine in their ability. Leaving the button mashers at home.

Weezer_Blue · Nov 29, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

I think instead of spending your time trying to think up ways to make the game easier for button pushers, you should master your profession.

Oh noes! Personal insults. Whatever vague bits of argument you had there have been overshadowed by your lack of maturity. In any case, it's all button pushing to me, because pressing W, A, S, and D isn't a big strain on my mind. I find it much harder to headshot moving targets with a rifle or figure my way through Zelda-esque puzzles. All a battle in Guild Wars is is "button pushing", because of the effect your premeditated game plan has. Builds. Whether you like it or not, the battle is essentially won or lost before you push the enter mission button. Yeah, you can play badly, or the enemy can play badly, but there is very little "twitch" skill present in Guild Wars comparable to that of a FPS - even mesmers and reactive healing monks or other sorts don't present much of a challenge. It's more of a "How fast can I click the button when I see the indicator that I should?" test.

Again, you ignore the premise and that is not to make it easier, although it is a side effect, but to make it reasonable for a caster that requires touch range skills to use his build to the most effect. If you have a melee casting weapon, these builds become more viable to play because it is no longer a huge downfall of having to run into range. You're already there. But most importantly: Twenty Percent. It's a magic little number that allows you to cast faster Twenty Percent of the time or to recharge faster Twenty Percent of the time. This number can make or break a battle when it comes down to two evenly matched teams. So what is the downfall of a melee caster weapon? Well, you get all of the counters to melee, no kiting, and no warrior benefits. Oh boy. Sounds easy and overpowered.

Most of all, it would just be a cool idea and a change of pace which has no balance problems but fits well into one of the many unfilled niches in guild wars.

PS: I have a feeling if the melee staff mod was present now, it would not have been removed. You're forgetting that the beta peroid was the same time that all the missions got nerfed in difficulty down to complete monotony, people were complaining about W/Mo's, and none of the greatly "overpowered" builds we see today were present.

Chev of Hardass · Nov 29, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Oh noes! Personal insults. Whatever vague bits of argument you had there have been overshadowed by your lack of maturity.

Do I need to draw you a picture?

OK, here you go

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

I would have to look out how wands and staves currently work. It would match them.

This means that you have not mastered your profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

In any case, it's all button pushing to me, because pressing W, A, S, and D isn't a big strain on my mind. I find it much harder to headshot moving targets with a rifle or figure my way through Zelda-esque puzzles.

If it is so easy, then you do not need a buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

All a battle in Guild Wars is is "button pushing", because of the effect your premeditated game plan has. Builds. Whether you like it or not, the battle is essentially won or lost before you push the enter mission button.

Have you ever played Guild Wars? Won or lost as soon as you hit enter mission. Good thing your not in my guild. We try to outplay the people that out-build us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Yeah, you can play badly, or the enemy can play badly, but there is very little "twitch" skill present in Guild Wars comparable to that of a FPS - even mesmers and reactive healing monks or other sorts don't present much of a challenge. It's more of a "How fast can I click the button when I see the indicator that I should?" test.

And where you are at that time, what you choose to use at the time, what the next three-five moves your going to make, and what the next three-five moves the other team is going to make. Anyone who chooses carelessly will get beat by anyone thinking about what they are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Again, you ignore the premise and that is not to make it easier, although it is a side effect, but to make it reasonable for a caster that requires touch range skills to use his build to the most effect. If you have a melee casting weapon, these builds become more viable to play because it is no longer a huge downfall of having to run into range. You're already there. But most importantly: Twenty Percent. It's a magic little number that allows you to cast faster Twenty Percent of the time or to recharge faster Twenty Percent of the time. This number can make or break a battle when it comes down to two evenly matched teams. So what is the downfall of a melee caster weapon? Well, you get all of the counters to melee, no kiting, and no warrior benefits. Oh boy. Sounds easy and overpowered.

To a player that is using a proper caster weapon, this would just make it easier. I suspect a monk will object to this heavily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Most of all, it would just be a cool idea and a change of pace which has no balance problems but fits well into one of the many unfilled niches in guild wars.

Cool ideas have a place. The cutting room floor. Great ideas might get implimented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

PS: I have a feeling if the melee staff mod was present now, it would not have been removed. You're forgetting that the beta peroid was the same time that all the missions got nerfed in difficulty down to complete monotony, people were complaining about W/Mo's, and none of the greatly "overpowered" builds we see today were present.

Have you noticed that they removed most of the incidents of button mashing? Fertile Stacking, Smite, Spirit, Putrid, and Interupt Spaming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Oh noes! Personal insults. Whatever vague bits of argument you had there have been overshadowed by your lack of maturity.

Here's some imaturity for ya!!

Fact is: If you refuse to accept being wrong, you are as smart as George W. Bush.

Now, you wish that any argument I ever had is gone, but the facts are facts. Just because you did not read the parts of my argument that applied to you, you got personally insulted.

Did I insult you, or your idea?

Did I stumble on something?

NatalieD · Nov 29, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

Fact is: If you refuse to accept being wrong, you are as smart as George W. Bush.

But he's not wrong, and name-calling won't make him so no matter how hard you try.

darkdragon99 · Nov 29, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

boys boys boys stop this pointless bickering there is no point in going about insulting people over a game.

Chev of Hardass stop being a prick and going out of your way to find something wrong with what eveyone says.

Weezer_Blue stop arguing with the prick he will never agree with you.

and also Chev cut the elitist bs there is no point it's a freaking game. in the long run it doesn't matter if your good at it or not and your dam sure not the best because there is no such thing.

Chev of Hardass · Nov 29, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

But he's not wrong, and name-calling won't make him so no matter how hard you try.

You misquoted me, thanks.... the correct quote goes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

Here's some imaturity for ya!!

Fact is: If you refuse to accept being wrong, you are as smart as George W. Bush.

No, I am afraid that skipping the lines does not allow you to attempt to remove the fun in that statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

boys boys boys stop this pointless bickering there is no point in going about insulting people over a game.

Chev of Hardass stop being a prick and going out of your way to find something wrong with what eveyone says.

Weezer_Blue stop arguing with the prick he will never agree with you.

Thanks for your cool-mindedness. Your ability to see through all the crap allows you to finish this argument only having to call me a prick twice. If there were more people like you on these forums I think all the moderators could just never come back.

/end sarcasm

Let me get this straight to all the listeners. I want to keep the weapons the way they are. I want this because, it gives an advantage to those that play casters with staves and wands an advantage over those that use swords/axes. Having a handicap like, having to think about your placement, deserves some sort of advantage over the player that only pushes a sequence of button.

I do not play caster with PBAoE spells, much. However, I have a friend that just started getting into PvP and has aquired rank 2 going to the hall with me 2 times. He may be new, but he is able to concentrate on when using aftershock it most valueable. This is a skill. It is developed by practice. Those that have practiced this skill to the point that they feel they are good at it will loose out by this proposed upgrade by being overwhelmed by people playing their role, but not having the same level of ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

and also Chev cut the elitist bs there is no point it's a freaking game. in the long run it doesn't matter if your good at it or not and your dam sure not the best because there is no such thing.

Wow, thanks. I didn't know you felt that highly of me

I am not the best at this game. I am better than many people at it. I am working on the skills to be the best, but that is a road that never ends. I feel that to be good at something, you have to work for it. If they removed the player skill to the point that this game turns into a series of sequential button pushing, I would quit.

And no, it doesn't matter if I am good at this game or not, in real life. In game, having the skills (gaming, not just being UAS) required to play means more than anything. If I am choosing a player, I will choose the player that I have seen play with real ability and real skill. So, being good at this game does mean something.

So, if you must, continue to ask for these Melee weapons, but ask for a little more as well.

You could change interupts to "The next time target foe uses a skill that skill is interupted." Then, everyone can be a top notch mesmer/ranger.

Heal skills could be set to heal whenever a player is below a certain health level. Then, everyone would use the exact healing spell that is called for at the time.

Resurection Signet could get the description "While this skill is equiped, any ally that dies will be ressurected automatically."

The list goes on.

I will continue to fight for player skill. That is a rare and valueable commodity. Some players work at it constantly. Some do not. Those that develope "real" player skill deserve an advantage.

If you notice, I was not against this idea, at first. However, as I thought about it, I realized what a disservice this would do to the player skill level as as a whole. Call me Elite, call me a prick, it does not matter to me as long as when I am beat, I am beat by players that beat me with the skill that they developed learning this game and not some loophole that they found within the mechanics of the game.

Edit: Added emphesis to one word, since I feel it may not be strong enough. See "fun"

darkdragon99 · Nov 29, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

you know what if your gonna keep this up you can do it with out me. go bad mouth someone els in a different game where bad mouthing is a usful skill.

and oh Chev i call it like i see it you are acting like a prick there for you get called one. learn some tact or learn when to shut your mouth either will work i prefer the later.

Chev of Hardass · Nov 29, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

you know what if your gonna keep this up you can do it with out me. go bad mouth someone els in a different game where bad mouthing is a usful skill.

This conversation was going long before you started calling people pricks. We don't need you, and we certianly don't need you calling your name calling constructive.

Go bad mouth someone else? How did I badmouth you? You stepped in to call me a prick and I refuse to allow you to do that without reminding you that that is not helpful, or constructive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

and oh Chev i call it like i see it you are acting like a prick there for you get called one. learn some tact or learn when to shut your mouth either will work i prefer the later.

Are you really serious?

Work on some tact? Coming from the guy who says "i call it like i see it," wow, really see if you can stick to an approach. You called me a prick, how is that tactful?

Shut my mouth? How about you see your way right out of this conversation, if you have nothing to add to it.

_________________added break line to show that I am not directing this at anyone in particular_______

Perhaps I insulted someone when I said that people with more skill should have and advantage over those without skill. I have not even claimed that someone did not have skill.

I did say that Weezer_Blue needed to spend some more time mastering his profession, after he said he did not know how staves and wands worked in game. That is a fact.

Did I say he had no skill? No. Did I say that I could beat him 1 vs 1, or in GvG, or in Tombs? No. Did I call him a button pusher? No, I said he was trying to make things easier on button pushers.

Get over it. I am not the animal that you wish I was.

Weezer_Blue · Nov 29, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

Here's some imaturity for ya!!

Fact is: If you refuse to accept being wrong, you are as smart as George W. Bush.

Now that's hitting below the belt!

First, I don't have a profession. I play everything equally (except I don't usually play necros... Just not very fun to me). Secondly. Quick! What is the square root of 2970293820394824?! See. You haven't mastered thought. You need to go back to thinking school and take math a few times so you can master it. Nope, no using a calculator to check your answer!

As for being wrong, I can't say anything about being wrong. There is no wrong or right on this issue. It seems to me like you think this addition would be terribly overpowered and yet your evidence is one skill, which I have already explained is no trouble. I didn't mean for the weapons to do melee damage, but for them to have melee range, and work with certain melee spells such as Illusionary (not that I use that piece of crap anyway. 40 damage is rediculously low unless you're attacking extremely quickly).

Finally, to say nothing of the horrible ideas that are in the game, there are plenty of cool and mediocre ideas in the game already. A.Net thought it would be cool if they didn't follow the lame MMO-cliched professions. Hence the implimentation of the Mesmer and trying to make all the classes unique. A.Net also thought that the MMO's were too grind infested, so they tried to reduce it (but failed in many aspects). Perhaps they think this is a cool enough, or even a "great" idea to impliment. Until then, if it ever happens, I'm fine using my trusty PvP smiting staff and half-assedly positioning myself so that my build works. Unfortunatly, it doesn't exactly convey that "wrath of god" feel.

TwilightOblivion · Nov 30, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

I am all for Scythes, no mater who they may be for

/signed

Chev of Hardass · Nov 30, 2005, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Now that's hitting below the belt!

Glad we can agree on Gee Dub, at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

First, I don't have a profession. I play everything equally (except I don't usually play necros... Just not very fun to me).

Ahh, I see. I played necro for ever. I then switched to Warrior, and only recently switched to Mesmer. I have played all the characters through in PvE, but we are talking about a different game if we want to talk about PvE. Anyway, I tend to sit on a profession till I feel like I can learn nothing about it. Then, I leave it and come back when I think there is something I am missing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Secondly. Quick! What is the square root of 2970293820394824?! See. You haven't mastered thought. You need to go back to thinking school and take math a few times so you can master it. Nope, no using a calculator to check your answer!

Actually, I am currently enrolled in Calc III. I recieved an A in Calc II over the summer. I am not a master of math, yet. Rest assured that I will be, and some people already think I am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

As for being wrong, I can't say anything about being wrong. There is no wrong or right on this issue. It seems to me like you think this addition would be terribly overpowered and yet your evidence is one skill, which I have already explained is no trouble. I didn't mean for the weapons to do melee damage, but for them to have melee range, and work with certain melee spells such as Illusionary (not that I use that piece of crap anyway. 40 damage is rediculously low unless you're attacking extremely quickly).

You have missed my main concern about these Melee range weapons. There is currently an advantage to those that feel like positioning prior to using PBAoE skills is second nature. For these players, it would be a great injustice to level the playing field so that those that have not yet mastered positioning can get positioned properly without the skill that the other players had aquired.

I feel like there is some Skill (as in Orders) unbalancing, but the real issue here is that some players do not need melee weapons to do the job you speak of, and they should be rewarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Finally, to say nothing of the horrible ideas that are in the game, there are plenty of cool and mediocre ideas in the game already. A.Net thought it would be cool if they didn't follow the lame MMO-cliched professions. Hence the implimentation of the Mesmer and trying to make all the classes unique. A.Net also thought that the MMO's were too grind infested, so they tried to reduce it (but failed in many aspects). Perhaps they think this is a cool enough, or even a "great" idea to impliment. Until then, if it ever happens, I'm fine using my trusty PvP smiting staff and half-assedly positioning myself so that my build works. Unfortunatly, it doesn't exactly convey that "wrath of god" feel.

All I can say is: Once you get that "wrath of god" feel (and you may get that next time you play) with your staves and wands, you would feel like all your hard work was for not, if they brought these melee weapons into the game.